no 3d in systempanel please

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DieterM
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no 3d in systempanel please

Post by DieterM »

3d in systempanel is very bad thing
please make systempanel like previous version with no 3d
I must make very fast prototype and 3d disturbs very much
previous was very good, now led array: black dots with nothing of text. no port or number on it.
LCD with connections is to big. no connections needed in systempanel
switch must be toggle or push to make or rotate, no extra layout switch symols.
and many more things
better just a symbol of the thing witout connections and so on.
symbol need to simulate not layout
please no symbols of 3d components on the side of panel and no 3d action icon on top of panel
bring back systempanel and icons of previous version!!
or make user chose if they want 3d or like previous version!
if simulate starts no popup of simulate speed and at stop no message of time.
make things back so we can work back fast and no extra layout.
less is more
I hate working with this Flowcode it gives me stress :oops:
i dont want to make my objects because the other where very good

hope you aggree
sorry

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PaulNe
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by PaulNe »

Hello,

We still have the dashboard, so users can work in 2D if they want to. The system panel is there for those applications where 3D is necessary. As for the size of the LCD screen, the 3D system panel now represents objects the same size as they are in real life. This is necessary for electro-mechanical simulations where people will simulate movement of real objects.

Paul

balles
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by balles »

Hi Paul,

i'll not write much about it, cause i done it before on other topics. But i see always the same request about interface, like that from DieterM, and Brendan.

The problem with the dashboard are these position buttons, control buttons and the rulers. The visual of the dashboarde is to heavy, with all these items. To be honest, i don't like it and prefer to use the 3d system panel.

Would it not be possible to go one step back with dashboard panel in something more close to what the panel was in V5? Simple 2D components and the options to work with? Without controls, position buttons, zoom...

There are two panels, why cannot that one stay as simple as possible as the previous versions of flowcode? It would resolve these request about interface, and the system panel could stay as it's now with his 3d controls/components.

Thanks!

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JonnyW
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by JonnyW »

Good evening.

I am looking at putting more comprehensive options in the 'Global Options' area to disable the system panel, to remove the rulers from the dashboard, maybe more.

As far as just switching between 2D and 3D, this is not something that can be done easily at all as it is a completely different way of designing and programming components, but is also probably not the real issue.

With the current system it would be easy enough to create components that were almost identical in appearance to the v5 ones - v6 is very powerful and users can do pretty much anything they want with it. One of our remits when producing this was to design components that reflected 'real world' components, not just a simple graphical representation of them. Perhaps this was not what our existing users want. We are considering ways to streamline the system so it can be more like v5 for those that want that, and more flexible for those looking into mechanics and electromechanical systems.

Cheers,

Jonny

balles
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by balles »

Thank you Jonny for that effort! I know that you guys will find some way to do it, even if it take some time. MM team is good to find the balance, happened before!!

As i see the system panel is ok, dosen't need option to disable it cause it can be switched on the view menu. At all the system panel is ok for the 3D capability. I use it instead of the dashboard, cause it's cleaner. If you can reshape the dashboard panel for something closer to the V5 panel, it will end the requests about the new interface.

"One of our remits when producing this was to design components that reflected 'real world' components,..."

Ok, it's understandable but people who work with electronics usualy have the ability to use some abstract layer to project the real world, and maybe cause of that we have get into this discussion. And to work they like practical things like "simple graphical representation" cause it's enough. Keep the 3D panel as it is with the 'real world components', and shape the 2D panel to be easy and fast to work, with "simple graphical representation" as possible.

Thanks for your time!

MJU
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by MJU »

I agree with the above although I didn't have a lot of time to work with V6 until now.

If there could be an option to disable all 3D features this would be a great help.
People that want 3D can use it, and people (like me) that don't need more graphics than these in V5 can work much faster.

I think that rendering some features slows down V6 on my computer.
Yesterday I made the same Flowchart in V5 and V6.
A simple keyboard from which the input was shown on a LCD in a loop.

V5 was much reactive in simulating than V6, my guess is that it has to do with extra (graphic) features that were shown?
I use the dashboard panel and hope you can (as told above) that the rulers and other features can be disabled via the settings.
The less I see on my panel the better.

What I also miss is the component connections visible on the dashboard panel.
In V5 I could see immediately which LED in an array was connected to which pin of the MCU.
And while I'm on it: I hardly used the settings panel. I liked the right click on a component and choose the settings from that point.
I liked the pop ups that I could use to set the connections (instead of using the settings panel).

Is it an option to make a setting for which panel to use as standard panel?
If I could set this to dashboard panel, double clicking a component would put the component on the dashboard instead of the system panel now.
Right now I could say that I will never use the system panel, but I can agree that there at one point be users that want to use it.

I know that people at MM are very good listeners to their customers so I think that our constructive criticism will be heard.
I hope that V6 will get better than V5 for all users by giving our honest opinion.

wayne millard
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by wayne millard »

I agree with everybody that the feel of V5 was clean and easy to use.
V6 has lots of good things added but I would of been very happy if the feel was the same as V5
but with all the good things that have been added without all the 3D components and panels
and some things seem to be long winded and not so easy to use.

Wayne :(
Last edited by wayne millard on Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zadah
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by zadah »

I have also same problem, I tried to move on FC6, but the interface is more messy than in FC5. The pure 2D like in FC5 would be excellent.

Also I tried to open my previous version of program on FC6, but I think it messed up things somehow :( because the program wont work in my PIC... I dont have time to troubleshoot problems like this, so I will stay on my FC5. I think compabilty should be better between these versions.

I think FC6 should have option to edit component C-code, I think you are now kind of a hiding the C-code from people, this is not a good thing.


BUt anyway simulation is much better in FC6.

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medelec35
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by medelec35 »

Hi zadah
zadah wrote:I tried to open my previous version of program on FC6, but I think it messed up things somehow :( because the program wont work in my PIC.
Just a suggestion:
Take a look at the value (Green outline) for configuration settings in FC5 e.g:
Config_FC5a.png
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You can click on the outlined buttons in FC5 and copy the values to outline values in FC6 Or just enter the values directly:
Config_FC6a.png
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I believe Matrix staff are keen to find out if there are any issues loading a FC5 flowchart in to FC6.
So if you do want to give the configuration part a try it may solve your issue?
Or if not commercially sensitive then if you would like to post your flowchart, then it may get sorted for you, since it was working with FC5.

Martin
Martin

DieterM
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by DieterM »

i can still don't work well with V6 after hours of use
to much graphics and V5 was much faster!!!
please make this expencive program better and easy to use like V5
disable 3d if not necessary in V6.04 so users will buy V6!
listen to the people that buy tje program please because flowcode is expensive enough

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JonnyW
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by JonnyW »

Hello Deiter.

If you wish to do things in 2D as v5 previously did, I would suggest the dashboard panel. In the next patch there are options to completely disable the system panel - everything will be done on the dashboard, which is more v5-like.

Unfortunately you can not just 'switch-off' 3D. The system is designed so users can develop components quickly and easily. Bitmaps were used in v5, but were discounted in v6 as hand-drawing is time consuming, so vector graphics were chosen instead. This is a foundation of the system - re-doing every component as a hand-drawn bitmap just so it looks like v5 would only increase the cost of Flowcode with very little gain to the end user.

I have added options to the dashboard to allow it to use minimal space if you wish - turn off the ruler and hide the toolbars.
000012_.png
V6 panels
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000011_Flowcode1 _.png
V5 panel
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For a speed increase, if you go Menu->Global Options->Application and ensure your graphics are hardware accelerated, this may speed things up. They are software as default because this provides greatest compatibility, but at a loss of speed.
000010_.png
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I appreciate that some of the 'real-world' components take up more space. The components are not part of Flowcode itself but we can tweak individual components as requested - it is easy enough to edit components in v6.

Finally, if you can convey what you miss precisely about v5 and more specifically the panel in v5 this helps us with designing a product best for you - what does the panel in v5 do that the dashboard in v6 does not?

Thank you for your time.

Jonny

balles
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by balles »

Great news Jonny!!

Thanks a lot, when comes out the new patch?
I'm truly curious!!

Cheers!!

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JonnyW
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by JonnyW »

We are very busy with presentations at the moment and I would like to spend time on any patch to ensure it is correct.

Perhaps in the next week or so we could release a patch - it would be good to get changes like this out the door, but its finding the opportunity to thoroughly test before releasing.

Cheers,

Jonny

DieterM
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by DieterM »

keep in mind that we need flowcode to generate code quick for rapid prototypes
all the rest is rubbish
what we need is right click component and lik in v5 have connections and properties window
not all properties in the propertiespanel but in pop up like in v5.
in v5 i click on a compinent and there is a field were i can set the settings for the component
no 10 switches or very bad led arrays to choose
the leds are black dots and dont look like leds!!! awful
1 switch witj properties like toggle or moment switch no ten types
no switches with stupid leds on them just a symbol of a swith that can be used by simulating
in V5 this was very good now i had too step back to v5 and payed for v6!!
in a ledarray the component connection visible becaus how do we need to know wich led is connected to wich pin????
when simulation starts no pop up for the simulation speed and when it stops no pop up for the ending of the simulation
a button to switch back to v5 components, no 3d because it slows down everything
no system panel only dashboardpanel
and so on

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Benj
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by Benj »

Hello Dieter,

Thanks for your comments. We greatly appreciate your input.
keep in mind that we need flowcode to generate code quick for rapid prototypes
We do try and keep this in mind and this is why we have tried to design a better more intuitive interface which allows not only us to churn out new components but also for our users to make their own components such as injectors to replicate a myriad of different sensors etc that can be used in the simulation to improve the likelihood of the hardware working first time. The old v5 style was nice and worked well but was very massively limited and took a huge amount of work just to fix a simple bug. With v6 we can hopefully jump on bugs very quickly and bring much more functionality to the front to speed up your prototypes massively. I'm a firmware and embedded engineer by trade so I do appreciate what your saying but I do also feel that a project using the new features of v6 is a lot faster then developing using v5 once your familiar with the v6 interface changes.
not all properties in the propertiespanel but in pop up like in v5.
In v5 all the properties and connections are hidden away in a window, if I got a support query then I would have to go through each dialogue for each component to try and see whats going on and maybe spot the issue. Again in v5 these windows were a nightmare to create and change not to mention DPI issues. In v6 the properties are very easy to edit and versatile. Can you explain exactly what it is you don't like about the new properties pane so that we may understand better and maybe provide improvements. We did include a XML option where we could layout properties in a similar style to v5 but so far we have not really explored this, mainly because users creating their own components probably won't want to do this and then there is a style mismatch between user and packaged components. Also consider tooltips, hover the mouse over a property and you should get a helpful tooltip, not possible using the v5 style window.
in v5 i click on a compinent and there is a field were i can set the settings for the component
no 10 switches or very bad led arrays to choose
We have cleaned up and rationalised components since 6.0 and the next major update 6.1 will hopefully act to really clean up the component library. We are also thinking about hiding surplus components and providing a search feature so as not to clutter the categories. The patches do have the new components but cannot remove the surplus components so there will likely be a lot of clutter that will disappear come the 6.1 major update in the new year.
the leds are black dots and dont look like leds!!! awful
Are you using v6.0.3? If not then it's worth upgrading as this should now be fixed. We can also add more built in styles if this would help and default the style to something which looks a bit more like LEDs.
in a ledarray the component connection visible becaus how do we need to know wich led is connected to wich pin????
We are working on a fix to bring back the connection labels as billboards so they always face the camera.
when simulation starts no pop up for the simulation speed and when it stops no pop up for the ending of the simulation
We can probably do this via a setting in the global options. One for Jonny.
a button to switch back to v5 components, no 3d because it slows down everything
We can't go back to the v5 components they were so limiting and horrible to work with, hopefully with the cleaned up components in the upcoming 6.1 release this will be better for you. I am also doing a lot of work at the minute to make sure the help wiki is up to scratch. I'm getting there but its a big job.

3D is often accelerated with hardware on nearly all modern PCs. There shouldn't be any significant slow down between the 2D panel and the 3D panel. If you are getting slow down then what is the spec of your PC maybe we can improve this for you (Flowcode's 3D capabilities not the spec of your PC :wink: ).

Also going forward 3D is only going to get more popular, best to get to grips with it now. 3D printers are awesome and the fact that I can simulate a 3D print and make the embedded hardware to create an actual 3D printer using the same Flowcode program is revolutionary and ground breaking.

The accelerometer demo at the link below also shows the positive aspects of the 3D panel.
http://matrixmultimedia.com/blog/?p=82

I can also bring the model for my quadrocopter into flowcode and model the environment to add gravity etc so I can hopefully test fly it in the simulation before risking my hardware with potentially faulty firmware.

3D was the right way to go, no doubt at all in my mind, however disabling it if not needed is no problem.
no system panel only dashboardpanel
I think this is on the list as a setting in the global options window.

Out of interest would it help at all if the panels didn't automatically scale when being re-sized?

balles
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by balles »

Hello Jonny!

Great job with the interface you have done!!! It looks now very close to the previous V5.

I just want to suggest to gray out (or remove) the system panel option on the components tool bar, when the system panel is disabled, as it appears on the view menu. If possible of course, see picture please.

Just to avoid confusion with the two panels. I know that add a component on the system panel it leads that component direct to the dashboard, when system panel is disabled.

Thank you very much for the effort done in this new updated patch 6.0.4! (edited to avoid confusion :) )
Balles
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dazz
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by dazz »

Hi balles
Try double clicking a component, this will now go straight to dashboard (if you turnt off the sys panel) whereas before it would add it to the sys panel

regards
Dazz
To sign up to the V5 forum follow this link http://www.matrixmultimedia.com/forum_upgrades.php

balles
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by balles »

Hello Dazz

thanks but, if you read my post i've posted that the selected component goes right to the dashboard, i'm asking just to gray out the double option that appears on the component bar, cause the "Add to System panel" is no longer needed, cause it's disabled. Of course if it can be easily done but this is Jonny's criteria.

Cheers!!

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JonnyW
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Re: no 3d in systempanel please

Post by JonnyW »

Hi.
thanks but, if you read my post i've posted that the selected component goes right to the dashboard, i'm asking just to gray out the double option that appears on the component bar, cause the "Add to System panel" is no longer needed, cause it's disabled. Of course if it can be easily done but this is Jonny's criteria.
Thanks, good spot - this is an oversight on my part and I will get it sorted asap.

Jonny

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